posted by Nila Palin 6/1/2018
Further to a brief discussion at Times for the Times,
I'm hoping that someone in the know will be able to
clarify whether the old Times tradition of A on B = BA
in an across clue is still in use. It's a minor point,
but probably one of interest to cryptic crossword
enthusiasts.
The convention seems to apply uniquely to the Times
(as cited in former Times crossword editor Brian Greer's
book 'How To Do The Times Crossword' [2001], but I see
the setter David McLean (aka Hoskins) also advocates it
on his website.
The trigger for the discussion is the clue "Cappuccino
maker is putting chocolate on it — cheers!" for BARISTA in
yesterday's paper.
I'd be interested to know whether the other
traditions peculiar to The Times that Mr Greer mentions
(pp 50-51) still apply too.
____________________________________________
Richard Rogan 5 hours ago
Yes the convention still applies
RR Crossword editor
__________________________________________________________
jackkt 4 hours ago
@Richard Rogan Thanks for responding, Richard, but if
the rule still applies then how do you account for the
clue quoted by Nila (17ac in #26954)? Is it an error
that slipped through the net , or have we misunderstood
the parsing?
Richard Rogan 3 hours ago
Having now double checked the clue you refer to (for
BARISTA) it does indeed infringe the rule. Not sure I'd
call it an "error" as such as it is only "wrong" by our
convention, but I would normally change the wording to
reflect the normal way we do things!
Further discussion on the ON ‘rule’ re
this clue in ST 4799 by Jeff Pearce blogged
27/5/2018:
14ac: Trainee carer working on bottom (10)
TENDERFOOT
jackkt
May. 27th, 2018 01:10 am
…Also puzzled by TENDERFOOT. I suppose 'carer
working' could cover TENDER, leaving 'bottom' for
FOOT, but that breaks the rule about 'on' in an Across
clue that A on B = BA.
kevingregg
May. 27th, 2018 04:06 am
…I certainly wasn't slowed down by TENDERFOOT, as I
never bothered to parse it. (Does the 'ON' rule obtain
in the Sunday puzzles too
jackkt
May. 27th, 2018 06:19 am
ON 'rule'
Having checked back on previous discussions about
this it was confirmed in Februrary by Richard Rogan
(Crossword Editor, The Times) that the convention
still exists for the daily puzzles but if there's a
clue where it's not applied it's not "an 'error' as
such as it is only 'wrong' by our convention".
Back in 2008 Peter B (now Crossword Editor, The
Sunday Times, but then in charge of TftT which was his
baby) stated that he was unaware of such a convention
but it was then pointed out that the 'rule' was in the
published guide to the Times Clue Setting competition
and other sources - a book by Brian Greer, for
example. Reverting again to the discussions in
February, an anonymous contributor stated "I know
Peter Biddlecombe allows it either way in Sunday Times
puzzles".
Clearly it's a convention that can't be relied on
even where it is agreed that it's supposed to be in
force, which takes us back to 14ac where 'carer
working' = TENDER now seems to be the most likely
parsing, but it's awkward to say the least and might
suggest that the clue should have been rethought and
amended.
kevingregg
May. 27th, 2018 06:51 am
Re: ON 'rule'
Thanks for this, Jack. I suppose that where a carer
is not necessarily doing it for a job, a tender more
likely is, hence 'carer working'. Or it may just be
filler to give grammatical structure to the clue. I'd
be curious to hear from Peter on this. In any case,
I'm glad that I didn't stop to notice the oddity of
the phrasing here.
peterbiddlecombe
May. 27th, 2018 12:51 pm
Re: ON 'rule'
The rule, if there is one, that A on B has to mean
B,A is not one I ever noticed as a Times solver, until
people told me about it. In an across clue, "on" has
to mean "next to" as in Southend-on-Sea. But in a down
answer divided into two parts, the first part is "on"
the second in the much more obvious way that the
screen I'm watching as I type this is on my desk.
I'm pleased to see that my copy of the guide for
Times setters (not supplied in that expectation that I
would enforce all the rules therein) confirms that the
"B,A" idea only applies to across clues, and in down
clues, "A on B" can only mean "A,B". It also says
"This is a Times convention". (The) Times conventions
do not apply in current Sunday Times crosswords, and
as far as I know, any past ones. And although I guess
I have to take a bit of blame as I have in the past
stated what various Times rules are (or were), I very
strongly believe that solvers should not learn them
all and expect them to be followed all the time. One
reason is that an editor could forget to apply their
own rule. In one long-ago Times championship puzzle
there were two pure hidden words, breaking the Times
rule that there is no more than one. As far as I know,
none of the contestants delayed entering the second of
the two obviously correct answers in the belief that
there couldn't possibly be another hidden word clue.
Another reason is that rules like this may change, and
if they are, there will not be an announcement in the
paper to tell you. The biggest reason is that
crossword solving should be an exercise in using your
wits, not remembering arcane rules. As usual, the
people who just buy the paper and happen to do the
crossword, without discussing it on public forums,
have said nothing about this clue in puzzle feedback.
"carer working" is for me quite simply a possible
alternative to "carer" as the indication for "tender".
jackkt
May. 27th, 2018 01:48 pm
Re: ON 'rule'
Thanks for your input, Peter. It's vary rare that
any of the 'rules' or 'conventions' make any
difference to arriving at the correct answer, only to
discussions about parsing which surely don't matter
much, if at all, to the vast majority of solvers. It's
mildly ironic that the forum you created is the
principle source of such discussions, but I'm sure we
are all forever grateful to you for creating it.